Michael

Yes, I do agree with your premise that the rich have more opportunities to get richer. In reference to the study you mentioned about HK that is rather interesting.

You are right in everything you said, and I agree with you. However, I still believe that studying, in a micro level, individuals that pertain to the 'middle class' will reveal that there is a trend of becoming richer. Maybe I am wrong, but in China--last time I studied it--the middle class is encompassing a HUGE chunk of the classes. I remeber someone made an analogy to a barbell and two weights on the side. The rich are on one side as a 10 pound weight, and the poor are on the other side with another 10 pound weight. The barbell itself, which weighs 45 pounds, is the middle class. It stems all the way from the poor, to the rich. So, in essence, the middle classes is becoming a class that encompasses the rich and the poor, so is there no class? Marx would argue that there is a seperation of classes and the proletariat is the working class, while the bougeosie or the rich and take advantage of the working class. Unfortunately this ideology is pretty much dead in the water but it still has some truths. That's why many countries that have nothing but poverty resort of social theories such as this one in order to put the 'blame' on the upper class. I must admit, I have deviated away from my true purpose in writing a response.

You are correct. I am contradicting myself there. Let me clarify, and correct what I was trying to say.

The rich, in my humble opinion, are getting richer by all means, however, relative to the middle class, they are getting richer but the middle class and the poor are also moving up. So, in the end, looking at the whole of the matter grouping together the rich, middle class, and poor, proportionately they are moving upward, so you cannot, speaking collectively, say that the rich are getting richer. However, looking at the group as an individual, you can say they are getting richer. The same goes for the middle class. You can analyze the middle class and see that it is 1. expanding, and 2. getting richer, relative to its older statues.

Do you understand now? I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Curb Zone

 

450SEL6.9

Yup! After reading your initial statement, I just wasn't sure which point you believed in. It's all clear now.

According to the same study, China has a very tiny percentage of millionaires, but they average wealth is $39m v. $43m for Hong Kong millionaires. China has also not been a member of the global economy for that long so it'll take time for them to really expand their wealth classes. I consider most Chinese a rural/farming class rather than middle class.

I don't really know what to make of the middle class in America because I think there is a housing bubble. People are living vicariously off that bubble. If everyone in the "middle class" bought a house for $400,000 and it's worth $600,000 today, they ought to be getting richer. Correct?

But what if they took that $200,000 profit/equity out of their house and financed their otherwise unaffordable consumption? Say, they all buy a fancy car that depreciates like hell. Are they really better off? I really don't know the answer. I think this is happening in the middle class and even amongst the poor (though not the dirt poor class).

Michael

I wonder, at times, if there were a study to be done on soci-ecnomic habits, I wonder if Americans(multicultural) would be the most irresponsible spenders. As a matter of fact, I have seen, heard, read, and studied that Americans are the most spenders in this world. So, with that said, I guess it is safe to say that the middle class will only grow, because of the market in the US.

You are also right in your assertion about borrowing against their equity. Personally, Americans are in a hurry for everything. I think the market is the reason why, because all these companies are constantly promoting new ideas, software, products, cars, etc. We buy, buy, buy and buy. We cannot sit down and deal with what we have. It is truly a consumers market and we will consume. Look at the fast food chains. That is an American icon. It is everywhere!

Hypersonic

I utterly agree Ray ...this is most certainly the case ...and it is not just in the USA, it is a major problem throughout the western world.

Hypersonic

Did you know that India has a middle class population that is greater than the entire population of the United States of America.

Michael

Well India is the second largest country, in terms of population, so I would presume that this is not to surprising.

I stick by my proportionality theory.

450SEL6.9

But why is it a western problem, Rob? I really haven't much clue about its reasons.

The Japanese are savers. For instance, they still have a postal savings system in Japan. Japanese people can deposit their cash in various post offices as well as obtain other, albeit basic, financial services from a post bank. The postal savings arm, the post bank, specifically, is called the Yucho.

But why are Americans and westerners spendthrifts? I'm unsure how many westerners are in the middle class because they live off and carry a prodigious amount of debts. This finances consumption that I think they otherwise can't afford. I've said before, household debts in America are at levels seen only just before the Great Depression. Debts must eventually be repaid.

If someone is living and consuming according to a "middle-class" lifestyle, but doing so with borrowed money that they don't otherwise have, does that still make them middle class? Or are they a lower economic class on temporary financial steroids? Again, I really don't know the answer.

450SEL6.9

You raise some great points in this post, BMWFREAK. I would love to see a current study on international socio-economic and consumption habits. I can't be certain that the middle class will grow because Americans are spenders. If people are spending money that they have, then the middle class will grow by fuelling the consumer market. If people are spending money they really can't afford to spend, any growth is artificial as that money must be repaid.

Hypersonic

There is also an important aspect of "buying a self esteem" and "buying an identity". In a culture that celebrates the individual above society as a whole, many people feel the desperate need to surround themselves with objects that communicate to the world ....there really seems to be a lot of people who are almost devoid of a personality these days -- they use consumer products to create an identity ...but also to create there own little fantasy world of self-delusion.

I sometimes find it sad that we live in a world today where beauty and materialism is prized well above intelligence, wit, dignity, kindness, generosity, and wisdom.

When I look at Hollywood celebrities and Hip Hop artists, it is difficult to think of any really intelligent ones ...most of them are far more concerned with their image, their hair, fashion, publicity etc.. -- where are the great characters, the great eccentrics, the great thinkers of our time? ...why are they ignored today?, while so much time is given to people who cannot even string a coherent sentence together.

Hypersonic

What about the huge numbers of working class people who have lost their jobs because the West can no longer compete with cheap labour in other parts of the world. In some cases, entire towns of people in the US have lost their jobs when factories have closed down and moved to China -- what will become of these people -- they are the new poor who will buy the cheap imported goods that they themselves used to make in the factories they were employed in -- America's trailer parks might be funny on Jerry Springer, but it is a hell of a way to live ...I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Curb Zone