The Artist

well that last sentence prooves that its not so easy to explain as you might think it is

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Hypersonic

I would never suggest it is easy Artist - there are a lot of ironies in this situation.

Artist, you are a "moderate" western Muslim, and yet, I find some of your views to be slightly extreme - we are constantly told that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, but I have a good Muslim friend who privately thinks America "got what it deserved" - and I know a lot of, so called, moderate Muslims, think this in private.

Artist, you know I respect you - I like you - My question to you is, as a young, well-educated, European Muslim, do you feel threatened by radical Islam?

The Artist

i personally do not feel threatened by radical islam.. but in the end if things goes to far.. life for us muslims living in non european coutry could get very rough..
therefor i do not like radical muslims..
but there is a fine line between radical muslims that just want to bomb and do this and that for stupid reasons... and ppl fighting for their land and freedom..

The Artist

ohh and about those so called extreme views..now you say a friend you have secretly belives that the US got what they deserved.. with no dissrespect to the lifes that where lost in the attacks..and to all american members at this forum.,
i can tell you that your friend is not the only muslim with those thoughts..

Hypersonic

Thanks for you honestly and clarity Artist - I think many non-Muslims find Islam to be a very controlling religion - like some Christian denominations - the intensity of your faith is difficult for many secular westerners to understand and appreciate.

The Artist

i know that thats true.. im taking a masters in religous studies..so i know one thing or 2.. many secular folks do still belive that islam is a religon forced on ppl and thoughts like that..
when you tell them that islam is the largest growing religon in the world.. and most ppl that convert to a new religon convert to islam..the look on their face is like they just found out that armageddon is tomorrow..haha

YoungWarrior

Yeah those dictators and extremist leaders get me so angry with what theyre doing to their people and it annoys me even more that the people cant see it.

Matt

I think its funny that people in bad situations feel the need to blame their own personal unsuccess on someone else. "i dont make money because my employer is a jerk", "I cant get decent grades because my teacher doesnt know how to teach" etc etc. Thats what the middle east is doing. Because the middle east is in an impoverished state, they, like many others down on their luck feel the need to blame it on someone else. What better target than the most powerful nation in the world, the U.S. I've also noticed that the people who never realize that the problem is indeed themselves, never succeed and remain in that state where their problems are the faults of everyone else.

Robert pointed out that CHina, who was very poor didnt blame their problems on the "west", and is indeed growing rapidly in economic success. They knew exactly where the problem was and that way they could take responcibility and fix it themselves. Now, the standard of living in china is indeed growing.

Gossip and conspiracies are believed and passed by the weak and stupid, such as young childeren.....

The Artist

i agree with you man..some ppl just sit around and bitch about things to much..
but you need to visit some of these places where ppl really are limited by other nation and groups to prosper and make good for themselfs..
being that im living in a country that isnt my naturall home..i can tell you having one foot in both worlds..that there are some ppl that are just geniunly lazy and dont know anything better than to complain..but i belive that its in the nature of most ppl to make good for themselvs..and some are really limited to do so via various nations and groups of ppl.. and to live under such cicumstances is extremely frustrating...

PS
i dont belive that the US is directly stoping anyone from developing..as a matter of fact the US is one of the countrys where personall development is most welcome..
but their intrests and friendships with some countrys make them indirectly apart of the limitation for other ppls growth..and therefor are often blamed by either lazy persons.. or just ppl that have tried and tried and are just desperate to get a structure in their life..
cause belive me no one wants to live in chaos and war..

Hypersonic

Yes, that is certainly true of Palestine of course, but in most cases it is bad leadership that is the main problem in many countries around the world

Of course one could argue that the current Bush administration is an example of bad leadership too - I don't hate George Bush, but his government has been very damaging to America.

I suspect you are being cryptically ironic there YoungWarrior.



Here is a poem I like, that I know many people thought of on September 11 2001.

It refers to the painting by Pieter Bruegel “Landscape with the fall of Icarus” - Icarus being the son of Daedalus in Greek mythology (the boy with wings who fell from the sky)



Musée des Beaux Arts by W. H. Auden

About suffering they were never wrong,
The Old Masters; how well, they understood
Its human position; how it takes place
While someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dully along;
How, when the aged are reverently, passionately waiting
For the miraculous birth, there always must be
Children who did not specially want it to happen, skating
On a pond at the edge of the wood:
They never forgot
That even the dreadful martyrdom must run its course
Anyhow in a corner, some untidy spot
Where the dogs go on with their doggy life and the torturer’s horse
Scratches its innocent behind on a tree.

In Breughel’s Icarus, for instance: how everything turns away
Quite leisurely from the disaster; the ploughman may
Have heard the splash, the forsaken cry,
But for him it was not an important failure; the sun shone
As it had to on the white legs disappearing into the green
Water; and the expensive delicate ship that must have seen
Something amazing, a boy falling out of the sky,
had somewhere to get to and sailed calmly on.

.....and I'm sure many people enjoyed themselves on September 11 - even patriotic Americans, perhaps at Disneyland - maybe for a moment, they stopped and contemplated the events.....but then continued what they were doing - as I type this, some people, somewhere in our world, are starving, being tortured, or committing suicide - this poem reminds us of that.

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