cawimmer430

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Mirage77

Thanks everyone for your input.

NarutoRamen

You know...i truly hate this comparo between Japanese and German engineering...because no matter what it just turns into a fanboy war. We are all here because we love german cars but that doesn't mean that you should be blinded by just the germans.

I'm with snake vargas, he is the one person who has shown the most unbiased opinion on this matter. I know others have too, don't worry I haven't forgotten. What I want to say is that this argument is just as stupid as arguing if what cars have more soul or passion. Please, those things are just opinions not facts. When was the last time you saw the passion or soul statistic in a car broschure? Never, because it's just stupid. Japanese companies make cars for a certain audience and german companies make cars for a certain audience. Yes, japanese want to take sales from germans but thats business. And japanese make wonderful products and their technology is great as well.

And if you're all going to talk about engines, why fail to mention the 10+ year old monster known as the RB26DETT? As good as engines are today, only AMG engines I think are the only ones that can rival this engine in sheer power and strength. I mean c'mon, this engine can be tuned to almost 1000hp even more without ever changing the block or modifying it much and it's only a 6cyl. The only other engine I know that can do that is the Supra engine, 2JZ-GTE. Hell, I even heard of the NSX engines producing some crazy ass numbers without much mods, yes a little more then the those two but still not as much as the Germans. Now the VQ35 series engine is coming close to these three monster in japan in the hands of HKS and other tuners, once again with just basic mods. Don't get me wrong, the S54 in M3s is fu!#ing sweet (i want to get another m3, don't forget) but it can never achieve the numbers that those engine put out without a major overhaul, and the AMG engines are displacement monsters with more cyl. So please give it up for the Japanse.

And as for the touch screen being behind in tech because of the german click wheel. Please, no offense but get your head out of your ass. The easiest click-wheel system i've used so far is the new Command but it doesn't hold sh!t against the Lexus touch screen and the Voice recognition of the Acura RL aka Honda Legend. I mean c'mon the Acura has not only the best voice recognition but it also has self updating traffic system...did the japanese copy this? nope.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the German, or I wouldn't be on this board. I just hate fanboy talks about how the Japanese arent as good as the germens in technology or how they copy without looking at the facts. We all know that all manufacturers take things from others and try to duplicate or improve it.

I used to have a M3, my dad is going to get an S-class my uncles drive S-classes, E-classes, G class, ML, 745, and my cousins have C class, slk, x5, 3series but we all love japanese cars and have them. Hell I drive a TSX right now and I love it. Of course, it's nothing compared to my m3 but that sh!t still is fun to drive. In my opinion and many others, besides the sheer driving pleasure and class status, there isn't much difference between the japanese and the germans. It just comes down to the looks and the price and how you want to be seen by others. So please, can we stop these kinds of talks?

Alx

Im curious to know what result you were expecting on a German Car Fourm?

Mirage77

Just unbiased arguments supported with substantial evidence.

Bruce

Well this is obviously a thread with great debate and here's what i think.

Today i think it's quite obvious both nations are equal on technology, especially when you look at Japanese interventions with the 8 speed gearbox and hybrid technology but on that front it's clear the German's have always had manic technology too, Mercedes has proven it with chanelling massive power through gearboxes as well as their extensive work with desiel technology. I'd rate this two nations on the same level. I have voted though and it's for the Japanese, yes they don't have any super coupes with 400 PS but their technology is just amazing. They only get my vote by the slimest margin.

However back in the early's 90's i would have easily given in to the Japanese. The automotive world was turned upside down in 1990 when Toyota introduced the Lexus brand, wether you liked them or not you could not deny the amazing feats created by Toyota. I've got personal experience with both 1990 model BMW's and Lexus and in my opinion Lexus technology was on another level. Where as the comparative 740i (92) felt great the Lexus LS was downright amazing, the ergronomics all thought out, the electronics well wired and the quality and general sense of being comfortable unmatched. Lexus had done the unthinkable, they had created a car with spooky silence, however that to a general audience was a fault, because my experience with a 1995 BMW 540i left a superb taste in my mouth. The Lexus was refinded but it lacked BMW's delicate steering feel and in-depth handling, it just wasn't as fun, but then again it was never mean't to be a racer.

However Lexus wasn't the end of it, Honda had Aryton Senna developing something too: the NSX. Where as the comparable 964/930 911 was a truly highly exciting car they both lacked the technological feats of the NSX supercar. The NSX was made from high quality aluminum, featured a new variable valve timing system called "VTEC" and of course a 3.0 litre V6 planted behind the driver. The NSX instantly became known as the user friendly supercar, the car that was comfortable enough to drive everyday but could easily keep up with the competition (the Zonda comes to mind, read sig) Sure through it's 15 year life time it didn't change much but Honda gave us the best version in 2002 with the NSX-R. A car which despite lacking the power of it's competition rocked around the Nurburgring in 8:09, a little slower than today's 997 Carrera S but achieveing the same times as others from Audi and Ferrari. On the Hockenheim Ring the NSX-R did the same thing, it kicked ass, achieveing a lap time within the same second as the 996 Turbo, even today's 355 PS Carrera S isn't far ahead of it. It was a stunning car and it didn't matter it had only 280 PS because the NSX-R could match the 997 Carrera S from 80-120 km/h in 4th, 5th and 6th gear. Nissan musn't be forgotten either, especially with the R34 which took AWD to new limits.

Giannis

BTW, why didn't anyone mention Volvo?

I read somewhere in GCZ that volvos get to drive in the streets for an average of 18 years!

BTW, other than my volvo, i also have a 16 years old renault and i am pretty happy with it. Please don't shoot me

Imhotep Evil

Yet another NA perception.

1... Lexus succeded in NA/USA, but failed elsewhere or was not introduced.

2... Europeans, rich middle east folks, people from SE Asia-Japan pretty much rejected Lexus and Co (there are some exception tought), they're cars are mostly made for the USA market and their brands have little recognition and no heritage.

3...The Lexus LS, pretty much bombed elsewere and was never a threat globaly/internationaly for the establisment S klasse and 7 series.

To turn the world upside down, you have to succed worldwide, and that's something Lexus and Co. have not done.

Cars such as the NSX, Supra, RX 7 and so on (of witch I'm a fan), pretty much failed in Europe & Middle East, since people wouldn't pay that much for unestablished/non-premium brands, yet they paid more for the likes of Ferrari/Porsche/BMW M cars and so on.
Also these cars (NSX and FQ 400) were usually stripped down cars, not quite acceptable for every day use.

Bruce

Yes, but you're talking about sales, something i was not, after all we were talking about technology.

Sales

You'd be right though, the Japanese have not had top notch sales all over the world, only really in North America is where Lexus and Toyota have succeed, but that shouldn't make them any less brilliant. but the fact being Toyota is a huge company, in fact while they don't sell many vehicles in other country's they are one of the world's most profitable automobile companies, their giant hybrid division has proved them well in spots like California and in the Luxury division Lexus has been the leader when it comes to luxury suv's with the RX. Lexus isn't the only one with high sales, Honda does it everyday here in North America with the Accord and the Civic, two cars which sell like crazy here, we obviously do not get Opel Astra's and Ford Mondeo's which other country's get, but then they do not get the Japanese vehicles, so it's an even trade. Infiniti did they're part too, when the FX45 and G35 Coupe/Sedan came out they sold like hotcakes and today they still sell fairly well. The G35 offered more power and better reliabilty than the BMW 3 series (excluding M3 on power)

NSX

The NSX-R was a stripped out racer, but it was no more stripped out than an 996 GT3, which owners complained slightly harsh for everyday use but not to extremity levels. The standard NSX was a vehicle known for it's user friendly-ness, it was a vehicle which could and is driven everday. Hey, Gordon Murray wanted the McLaren F1 to be just like a NSX, have the same everyday useability and same cutting edge techonology. As i'm sure you already know, Murray went to Honda for an engine long before he went to BMW. Gordon Murray said he wanted the F1's gearbox to be indentical to the NSX's which he thought was the best on the market.

Technology

But the above is really irelevant, because i'm talking about technology and that's something the Japanese have done very well. Lexus introduced the first hybrid luxury SUV to the market, they also shoved the first hybrid luxury saloon to the market (the GS450h and now the LS600h). Lexus had he idea of performance and petrol economy and that's something they did. The GS450h did an amazing feat when it beat the 550i (367 PS) in the 0-100mph time (Road & Track)

Now, right now as i speak, Road & Track says Porsche Motor Co. is the most profitable company in the world and that's great, i love Porsche. However it was also Japanese technology that helped them back in the days of engine cooling, two engineers were brought over from Toyota to develop the watercooling system you see in modern day Porsche's from the 996. In fact, Porsche has always had strong connections with Toyota.

I'm not a Japanese fanboy either, if you ask me what my ten favourite cars are, only one would be Japanese. A dream car garage would be pretty much the same deal.

Im just someone who sees the enormous contribution the Japanese have done for the world. I do not care if they haven't sold a billion in Europe just as i don't care if Renault hasn't sold a billion over in NA, Renault still makes amazing hatches and etc, just as the Japanese make amazing vehicles. Just because Renault hasn't turned the American market over doesn't mean they are rubbish.

NarutoRamen

^^ What he said!

Imhotep...Zonda FSR is right. We're not talking about sales numbers because that would mean that the Corolla is the best car in the world because it's the most sold car in the world. We're talking about technology...so lets stop with the sales numbers. I'm not sure if you guys have read my post above, Zonda FSR's post goes hand in hand with mine.

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