Imhotep Evil

I don't suport things like this, what Israel is doing right now.
But hizbollah is not an inocent organization either.

There are terorist who think killing inocents is OK, and there are the military hawks/crack heads who belive killing inocent in fighting these therorist is OK.

As I've said it before both are wrong, both sides are criminals.
And if these events show anything is that inocents on parts will be the ones paing the price.

Curb Zone

 

Michael

IE you are right many of the things you have said. I for one do not support any terrorist organization, however, I do think that the Israel has passed what I would consider a 'reasonable line.'

I took a Middle Eastern class, and if you would've read my post, you would see that I posted something in reference to the Arab-Israeli War and Nixon. One thing I learned, in my class, was that in one of the Arab-Israeli Wars, Israel almost lost, if it wasn't for the US. Could you confirm this for me?

The Artist

so IE you are giving me history lessons..let me give you a lesson in religion..wich is my area..

According to the jewish belive the land of israel will be given back to the jews by the hand of god.. and upon this, the messiahs will come..

now the land was not given to the jews via gods hands..it was given by mans hand, many belive ( even jewish ortodoxs)..
but the majority and those with power are the zionist jews..wich are those who got israel from the UN and made an appeal on the land.

now if you ask a jew why hasent your messiahs come yet..you now have your land.. the ortodox say the land israel is not given to us by god yet.. and the way we got it is wrong.. in other words there are jews that are against the state of israel..

and if you ask the ordinary jews ( zionist and so on) the answer is diffrent..from case to case..but many say that the whole land of israel like it was some 2000 years ago arent in our possesion and until that day our messiahs cant come.
...
So you ask me how its wrong.. its wrong cause their belive dont want it to exist this way.. and its wrong cause ppl lived there and have been pushed out by MAN to make way for the jews.. thats why the existence of the state israel is wrong in my eyes.

Plus there is no freakin way that you can justify taking back land wich belonged to your ppl some 2000 years ago..
if so the americans can return america to the Native indians..

PS
So according to you there is no way that israel can be defeated..no power in the world..or no alliance can ever do that??.. are you really so naive

Imhotep Evil

I don't know exactly, to my knowledge there 2 crises for Israel.
One was in the 1948(/49) war.

Initially the Israel seemed lost, but after major influx of population they've won and weapons.
Since both the US and Soviet Union had recognized Israel, it had International moral suport.

Also there was the Yom Kippur war. Initally the arab alliance had upper hand
thanks to the element of surprise, thus ocupying/liberating/takeing back important teritories.

If think it was at this point that H. Kissinger said that for every israelian airplaine that arabs claimed to have taken down, the US will replace it.

Since the 60s the US had become desperate, some might say, in preserving Israel.

While there was suport in one way or another for Israel from some part of the american population (jewish mostly) it was only after the Soviets stepped in, that a strong Israel had becomed an american necesity.

That american suport for Israel led to the first Oil Crise.
Eventually the USA and Soviet Union made a common front to end the war.

But at this point of the war the situation was reversed.

Imhotep Evil

While I have to agree with several of the things you're saying, the argument about religion is very weak.
Many people don't realy take the scripures literaly.

There are also conservative, liberal, agnostic and atheist jews with (very) different views from the orthodox jews.

Also, it wasn't just the UN that gave the jews Israel, it was also their victory in the 1948/49 war, and the wars that followed.

Also (modern) nation-states were not created by religion. While religion played a part, it was not the primordial factor. Culture-civilization and a (sum of) cetralizing force(s) were the primordial factors.


This is the main issue, the main problem.
Because jews can say take a look at spanish history.
The only true solution for the future is the existence of both Israel and Palestine.
And maybe Jerusalem should be an opend international free city, belonging to none yet to all.

I've said, no power/alliance in the region.

Hypersonic

I'm just curious, do we have any Jewish members on our forum ....there surely must be some ...I would be interested to read comments from their point-of-view.

PS, my grandfather was Jewish ...but I am not ..so that probably doesn't count.

The Artist

Well im glad that we can agree on things here..
but the religon point of view isnt weak in this case..as the appeal made for the land of israel is based on religous belives..
if they didnt care about religion..or didnt take it word for word..they could have moved to Argentina or Uganda ( i guess cant remember properly) wich was also 2 other options given to the jews at that time..

Alx

Im Jewish, but not religious, its a sensitive subject for i feel for both parties as far as innocent parties getting hurt are concerned. But i stay away from threads like this and personally dont like them on the forum, they can get real ugly real fast and very offensive as well. People DO take this VERY personally. And in my opinion there is no need for that on a car forum.

Nontheless this thread exists and so does the conversation.

I stated my thought about war in the last paragraph, and thats all im going to say.

At the end this thread will not solve nor bring forth a resolution to the situation, so i dont choose to get involved this topic/thread. A real black and white conversation on this topic will DEFINATLEY end up offending both parties and as i said on a car forum, that is the last thing we need.

Michael

Alex you are right in you assertion. I am responsible for this thread, and have been watching it. If it does get worse than what is it I will close it immediately.

If anyone does want this thread closed please let me know.

Michael

Artist I think you are right in your assertion here, however, I can't help but say that I don't think many people today in days, or at least all of them, take religion the way some of these fundamentalist do. In addition to this, I would go as far as saying that I don't think many that are fighting on both sides are truly under the belief that they are trying to preserve the promise land. I think some just fight to fight. Just like with American Soldiers that are fighting in Iraq. Some are there because they have to be there, and others because they want to be there. Some believe they are fighting for the better good of our country, others could care less about our country and are just there because they are ruthless, or feel they have purpose in life, and the list goes on.

However, in Israel I know that everyone, or at least almost everyone, have to join the military, but I still think that what I said above exists today in day.

People are not as patriotic as they used to be. War used to be glorious, at least the majority thought it was. After the great wars of our time--which there have been many--I think the masses have come to realize that in some instances people are fighting just because they despise their enemy not because of self preservation. 0.02 cents

Curb Zone