Choleric

I do not think we should just stop support for Israel, offer equal support to Palestinians yes, but stop support of Israel, no.

Why do we support Israel? Well there are many Issues at play here. Most importantly they are an ally, you just dont stop supporting your allies. We all know if the US stopped backing Israel, they would have a very explosive future. They are also a ally in a very volatile region where the US needs allies the most. Also as Rob led to, the Jewish community in the US has very very strong political clout in both parties of all levels of government. There are many more reasons why, but hopefully that is a start.

Oh and Rob, I'll reply to your post about Iraq when I get back from work.

The Artist

about needing allies in that area?
that is as of latest.. and israels has been under the wing of the US from start
by the way about the US worriying about new conflicts in the area.. i dont buy it..if there is nothing for the US to get there..then the US dont care..
( and why should they..no body told them to be world police)
but about the jewish community having a lot of influence ..i think you hit the nail on the head right there..
thats where it begins and ends.. with the support to israel--

Michael

Wow. Darn! I wish I was here for all the shooting. I see all the chairs are broken. Hmm....I can't break anything. Oh well.

Gentlemen, I think we all know the sensitivity of the topic at hand and the intricacy of it. I cannot go back and address everything that has been said, but I will go from what I can remember.

First, I believe it was mistake to go into Iraq, nevertheless, I will not for once ever subscribe to the propaganda about the US going into Iraq to spread Democracy in the region. First and foremost, democracy in such a region is not necessarily impossible but rather difficult. I am sure that many American's were oblivious to all of the regional issues before 9/11 occured. To me, the issue with Iraq goes far beyond liberating them. The Iraqi people were enslaved by Saddam Hussein and the party he belonged to for a long time. He was an evil man, that assured himsefl, and the people of Iraq, that messing with him and/or plotting against him was out of the question. He was a very paranoid man which is why he would have a double and would make sure that his food was tested before he ate. With all of that said, Iraq was in way better shape when he was in charge then what it is now.

Granted, Iraq is suffering from a change of power and civil unrest. In addition to this, there is an influc of insurgents. However, the American view and approach to things in Iraq was dead wrong from the beginning. We should not have gone into Iraq period. However, our strong alley, Israel, suffers a great deal in the future if we were not to take a stand in the region. Doing so would offer an opportunity for the US to expand it's influence. An influence, that in my opinion, doesn't seem to be going very well.

Let's face it, the US is arrogant and running out of fuel. We cannot continue to be pushing people like we do. I hate, sometimes, to be referred to as an American. The 'American' image has been so tainted that many Americans are not given a chance to speak. I for one am an American, but not Bush's American. I truly dislike the fact that our President, has tarnished and gravely hurt the image of the United States.

Yes of course, Israel is the priced possession of the US in the region. The jewish community in the US has a grave interest in what happens in both domestic issues regarding foreign Israeli issues. The bottom line is that the jewish community has a strong hold on what is going on with our foreign policy when it comes to the Middle East. I personally do not agree with the bias towards the community itself. The Palestinians have a right, just as the jews do, to the territory which is occupied currently by Israel. I researched, read, wrote, and discussed a tremendous amount on the zionist movement. To be hoenst with you, I don't subscribe to the belief that the jews have a right to Israel, or Palestine. There have been a lot of injustices commited by Israel, one of which being what happened last summer in Labanon. I truly think that in order to make things work, we must be fair on both ends. I just cannot conceive how the US has been such a strong supporter of Israel for so many years. I cannot believe we do not have an American President that will stand to have an equal discussion, and solve the problem equally. Without the support of the US, Israel is at it alone. There needs to be a resolution reached in the region in order to move forward on some sort of positive note.

The Artist

^super post..

agree with everything..
i feel your pain about that american thing..
i have the same feeling about these fools that tarnish the image of my religion..
i just hate it..and ppl with no better judgement belive whats written in the media about americans,or muslims.. and start to hate whole nations.. or a majority of the worlds population just cause of that..
so in todays time where ppl are using less and less of their brain..its suicide to have someone do stupid things in the name of something you belong to..

PS
I have also wonderd why there is no president yet to question the alliance with israel..
the only thing that comes to mind is the american political system..
wich is based on a corporate funding in terms to stand up in an election
the ppl that go in and sponser with money and power.. very early on makes it clear what they want changed and how they want things runned..
and israel seems to be on top of their agenda..

ZicZachZo

I just want to interject some thought into this thread. I really believe that George Bush has caused Americans to distrust middle-aged white men. And his friend Rumsfeld and Cheney really helped in this area. I really think that Americans are kind of tired of the middle-aged white politician. At least I hope so!

Barack Obama has my vote so far.

Hypersonic

Excellent posts guys.

Lets be be very clear about this, I am not a strong Bush supporter ......but I also think some of you are placing far too much blame on Bush for everything the world dislikes about America.

This might be a shock to some Americans but the US was not exactly universally loved even before Bush came along. Bush has been a wonderful poster boy for anti-Americans around the world. What easier target is there than a conservative Southern Baptist Texan.

Hypersonic

Hmmmm, I don't think a persons colour makes much difference here. Lets not forget Condi has huge power in Washington ....and she's as far as you could get from a white man.

I don't know much about Obama, he could be a great president ...I don't know ..........but I certainly will not assume he will be good simply because he is not white.

Michael

Rob, it is really nice to be discussing such topics with you once again. In addition, having Arits, Jeff, and everyone else around is a treat.

I don't think you are a "strong Bush supporter." On the other hand, you mention that 'we' may be blaming Bush....well I do, but not him directly. The poor man could not come up with such an intelligent scheme. I am blaming the conservatives in the US, and the ignorant American people for that matter. The movement in the US to continue to police the world has really stricken down on the image we once had. You can see that this administration has consumed itself with everything Iraq and nothing domestic. The 8 years that he has been in office it has been known as the 'War on Terror.' This is ridiculous. How can we have an American President go down in history has being successful when all he did was not do anything for his people and quiet frankly tarnish the image, reputation, and credibility of his own country?

The New American Century is a neo-conservative group that for years has been arguing about going into Iraq and the Middle East. The point here is not to disrupt the region--which I am sure ultimately is what they would love--but to tame it, I would say. They are attempting to control what is the most valueble possessiob--oil. Nevertheless, the oil is not the only issue. The spread of Islam is a threat, at least to them, to the world itself.

Hypersonic

I agree with much of what you are saying Mike but I seriously don't think the Democrats are so entirely different either .....they are backed by many of the same interests.

I also don't believe America's international reputation has changed quite as drastically under Bush as some might think .....I know you guys in the states all think the rest of the world suddenly views the US is an arrogant bully -- well they have been saying that long before Bush ever came to office. It goes with the territory of being the only superpower.

As for oil, well the US has not claimed Iraqi oil -- Iraq is profiting from its oil reserves, not the USA.

You are correct about the fear of Islam though -- and I do believe the US has good reason to be fearful ........not of Muslims, but of terrorists who interpret the Koran in different ways. As The Artist says, there are people who are damaging his religion, people who are manipulating and brainwashing young men and women. These people are a big threat to the western world and to the Islamic religion as well ....and I would include President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as one of those dangerous people.

The Artist

About the american image..
i can say this..nobody loved america outside america.. besides sweden maybe..
but now even sweden and the swedes hate on america..
once i felt they looked up to america as to they know how to handle things..
now they see americans as ohh damn not those fools again..

so yes the image has been hit with a severe blow.. but as you say it wasent great to begin with..

Now let me tell you why it took such a blow.. the US started a beef wich should have been against a country .. but media, the US, the ppl.. actually the whole world is at fault here... they made it religious..
now Islam is the largest religion in the world..recently surpassing christianity..
Every civil human being atleast knows 1 muslim.. and a muslim range all from a black dude in the middle of africa, to a swedish white dude in the north..
so to take on a beef with a religion is so wrong..especially one this large..
thats why the image has been destroyed..

before the US was in the balkans for example.. and i like clinton..all my serb friends HATE his gutts...
and ofcourse they do...
but do you see the diffrence.. the world saw clinton as a good guy..cause the beef was against a small part of the world..
those that got hit..ofcourse cares.. but the others dont give a beep..

So i belive the US has woken a beast of a problem..wich they CAN NOT deal with properly..

PS
About america not making money.. ofcourse the gov arent directly putting money in their pockets.. even bush aint that stupid..
but wich companys are getting the oil outta the iraqi land?
are they iraqi petroleum companys?
Are you sure that Chevron and Exxon Mobile has something going on overthere?
And before the war saddam didnt sell a liter of oil to the US..
And now they suddently scored one of the worlds largest oil reserves..
and now they can buy from it also..
if thats not making money..then i dont know what is..